My main wargame would arguably be Warmachine. I don’t get the opportunity to play it more but that’s mostly my fault. I am, at heart, a little too competitive. Because I don’t play enough, I would rate myself as upper middle.
Warmachine has suffered from several problems, few of which wreck the game itself. The two biggest problems seems to be a slight lack of balance ad a rules glut.
It was the former that bothered me. There were definitely games in Warmachine where you were playing a rock army and faced a scissor or paper army. As in, you either had little chance to fail or win. That I never cared for. You could, of course, retune and tailor your army to beat that scissor or paper but part of the game is not knowing the army you’re going to play against. That’s part of the fun.
However, it was the rules glut that Privateer Press was frustrated with. Every figure had to have kewl special abilities. And once that door is opened, you now have a problem that future releases have to be even more appealing to get players to pick up the new miniatures. In none of the new figures are appealing, then the game collapses.
So Privateer Press has redone their game. A new set of base rules and they’ve revamped all the figures, changing or discarding abilities and altering point costs. It’s a bold move. One that’s left a lot of fans rather frustrated.
The problem is, to avoid the rules glut, you have to remove some of those rules. Refining them only works so much. There were too many rules that allowed you to act on your opponent’s turn, so most of those were cut out (but strangely, not all of them). The problem with acting out of turn became who got to complete their action first. And what if my acting on your turn activate one of your special abilities that allowed you to attack or move your figure again! It became quite the nightmare.
So fine, they removed a bunch of abilities. Naturally, when I have 10 chocolate bars in a week and you take 4 of them away and say I can do just fine with 6 chocolate bars…dude…6 is not the same as 10!!! It doesn’t matter that I didn’t need the 10 chocolate bars…I had them and they were mine and I enjoyed them. Now to say that I only have 6…somehow it’s hard to get excited about just 6 chocolate bars…
Now I’m hungry…
Anyway, I’ve only given it one play in the new rules. I tried some things out as did my opponent. Things that I wouldn’t likely have taken previous to this. I busted out my favourite Warcaster (think of this as an uber wizard who’s like physical buff and can cast crazy powerful spells every round), Kreoss. And while I tried in vain to kill my opponent, the Old Witch, on my turn she did not die (on average rolls I should have killed her). Then, due to a complete fluke, she burned to death at the beginning of my opponent’s turn. I guess you take a victory where you can.
My first impression then, is that this is a great game. I was pleased that several things were toned down but that the game was still workable. People will complain endlessly that they miss ability X or that ability Y was taken from them and it’s not fair ‘I tells ya!’. But one thing that they can’t say is that the game doesn’t play well still.
But it’s still not going to be a fair game. There are still some Warcasters and combos out there that are stupidly easy to pull off. And it is a shame that Privateer Press hasn’t bother to correct those problems.
See, tournaments are a big, big thing to Privateer Press. I wouldn’t play in a tournament because there are too many douchebags in the world, but I love to hear about them.
There are four factions in the game: Khador (the Russians), Cryx (the undead), Cygnar (the ranged/lightning guys) and Menoth (the religious zealots). I know it sounds strange but it’s fun and it works.
Anyway, Khador wins the majority of the tournaments. Followed by Cryx. Then Cygnar and Menoth are probably tied for last place.
So it was with great surprise that in this massive level of change, Khador seems to gotten away with the least amount of change. In particular they had the most powerful Warcaster, Vlad. Vlad has actually managed to defeat half of another player’s army by himself. He is extremely powerful and special tactics were invented on how to defeat just him. I just wanted to see him toned down…and in some ways he was. And then they gave him a brand new ability that makes him just as awesome again. In fact, if he didn’t have that new ability, I wouldn’t feel so threatened by him.
So it makes me think, did each faction have a different editor? Did they not acknowledge the fact that Khador consistently wins more than most and Vlad is at the top of the list of victories?
This is not to say that every faction doesn’t have that Warcaster. Menoth, my faction, has the Harbinger which can protect her people from dying which can be hella frustrating for your opponent.
So they successfully fixed the rules glut. But it seems, that they failed to fix the game balance. After these changes, I can’t imagine Menoth will ever start winning tournaments again. But Cygnar might be very competitive against Cryx for 2nd place. Khador, I suspect, will be at the top still.
We were told, as players, that we are doing a field test of all the figures and rules. To see what works and what doesn’t work. If there are anything still unclear about the rules. But we were told that most likely, nothing will change. Except that they have said that if enough people report a problem or concern, they might consider a change. I’m curious as to how much weight a persons voice carries?
I know (from some personal experience) that you cannot build a perfect and balanced game. But it’s my hope that you can at least have a game where one faction or figure doesn’t roll over others. I find all too often, my opponent has a better combo than me and due to a spell, a feat (an uber spell) and a sweeping assault, I’m vanquished without so much as a “hey!”.
Warmachine has been and always will be, a game where knowing what your opponent can do is just as important as knowing what you can do. I’ve never seen a person win by beginners luck. There is just too many factors to take into account. Case in point, most games of Warmachine are won in a single sweeping round. The game ends with the death of the Warcaster, so you have to not only attack the opponent but protect your Warcaster. The moment you slip up in the later is the moment an opponent can sweep in for the win. Warmachine has a lot of crazy movement where it’s hard to see all the angles that an enemy could move in for the win, so it’s usually impossible to have complete protection from all harm.
Now there is slightly less to remember. Most units had something taken away from them and there are less out of turn instances with the game. Does this alone make it better? In many ways, yes. But people are still going to cry that you nerfed this unit and didn’t nerf that unit.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to go to the Privateer Press forum and scream bloody murder over the nerfing of some of my beloved Menoth figures.
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7 comments:
I am glad that you still like the game and I would be interested to hear what the armies are that you think are unbeatable without specifically tailored lists.
I play protectorate myself and think the faction did well in MK II.
Keeping in mind that comparing MK II to MK I is really apples to oranges, where is it you feel we fall short?
The solos and Warcasters did very well. I've got some of the same problems that many of the other Menoth players have: the Infantry.
I understand, making infantry have less rules (rules gluts) is better in the long run. It's just extremely hard to seperate what we had from what we have now. PP seems to insist that we not compare MKI to MKII, therefore most of my problems with the infantry do not matter. I don't like how the Zealots, Irdians, Temple Flameguard and Basitons have been re-imagined. I see the Iron Fang Pikeman and Trenchers, for example, that seem to function almost exactly the same way as they used to. Irdians are a different unit. The Zealots and TFG are...just a shade different enough as to be a little...hard to swallow. The Basitons had a lot of potential but I just do not see them being the equals of those in their point's bracket.
Anyway, that's all just bitching. But PP says it's my game too, so I get to bitch.
I find, in general that currently, if I know what faction I'm playing, I can tailor myself to face that faction. It's...kinda cheap. I would rather be effective against all factions, but that seems likely impossible. If, for example, I play Cygnar...well...I need the Avatar. I've always liked 'jacks but between the Cortex damage and Disruption, I will go out of my way to field less 'jacks (and again, field the Avatar). The first time I had a Cygnar 'jack march up and buy extra hits for his Shield, I realized how crazy easy it is to lose your Cortex.
If I'm playing against Khador, I have to bring as much Pathfinder (incase I meet Irusk) or Gravus/Covenant now (incase I meet Sorcha). Both Irusk and Sorcha are great examples of two casters who, without a fielding a certain combo of figures, I can pretty much know that I will auto lose. If I don't have enough Pathfinder against Irusk, I lose. Games like these are often decided by who puts the first big dent in an opponent's army.
Anyway, the point is, there are some situations that will occur where I will autolose if I didn't know which warcaster I was up against. Vlad and Irusk are two of them.
Where does MKII fall short? Big and small things, I suppose. I've played a LOT of AT-43 lately (only with my dad who needs an excuse to hang out with his son and because it's a simplier game in general). I think that the back and forth turn system in any miniature game is bad. I much prefer the I activate a unit and you activate a unit. It is so much better. But I never figured PP would ever change that. So no biggie. I just hate sitting there, doing nothing while my opponent roles a lot of dice. It's funny, because PP took out most of the interrupt style actions, but that's the type of actions that I thought were great.
Arguably, a game can be won when you control it. If you have the threat of a retribution spell, your opponent has to adjust their tactics to overcome it. But the more that they adjust their tactics, the more they are reaction to your game and not making you react to their game. I end up playing Khador a lot and man, you are forced to react to their game a lot more than the other way around. Menoth seems to have little board control. About the primary form of board control we have is that we force some players to use magic attacks over non-magic attacks (to kill Vilmon, Paladins and Zealots). I fought the Old Witch the other day and man...between her feat, the Dragoon just waiting for me to move and her Murder of Crow's spell, my opponent DEFINITELY had board control. It was amazing that I won, but upon retrospect, I messed up my use of Vilmon and I don't think I would have won.
I run a lot of games and tell a lot of stories and have tried to work on my own miniature games. I've realized one thing about players (well more than one thing, but the big one thing): Players like their shit to be full of awesome. They like to be able to say, "oh yeah, that was ME baby!". Players in turn, get very attached to their factions, when playing a miniature game. It's why games like Lord of the Rings are doomed to failure. First, it's only a two player game. Second, faction loyalty is...tricky. These factions already have bigger than life stars. Hard to breath the appropriate life into them as a rabid fanboy. When I played the Harbinger, I had that feeling of power. That feeling that I had a powerhouse that could beat most comers. Now...less so. Menoth is supposed to be about denial, but that role has changed now. We don't...deny quite as much as we did.
Where does MKII fall short? The rules are great. LOS needs just a bit more clearing up: Eyeless Sight, Acrobatics and Flight should be part of the LOS and Charge rules. I've always had confusion and questions about those. Some examples in the book would clear all that up.
I think every faction has a small handful of units that need to be cleaned up. I applaud any attempt to make all units viable and different. But, for example, many losers on the forums though that the Machine Wraith was useless in MKI. I loved the little guy and always brought one (yeah, I play a bit of Cryx too). I didn't care if he died along the way. If I could make the warcaster not allocate focus to a 'jack once, mission accomplished. Now the with the inclusion of the word: Only inert 'jacks...seriously...how many times does that come up in a game? I've never seen it happen once. It is no longer in anyway a viable piece.
I think the moment people stop wanting to own a piece and people never field it, then there is a problem. Case in point: the Paladin. Sucked before. Awesome now. I guess the opposite is true: any piece that is auto-include, is not good either. Original Vilmon was such a case. Now he's great without being too powerful.
I would say that every faction, has one unit that needs to be desperately fixed or it will never see the light of day. I would say that every faction has one unit that could be altered to make the rabid fans happy. And every faction has one unit/ability that still needs to be nerfed just a bit. Umm, except for the Protectorate, please. =D
Anyway, I'll do my civic duty and play more. Erm, thanks for reading and randomly finding my blog. =D
Fair comments many of them, I hope that you have been writing them up as feedback for the field test.
There are clearly some models that will need to be adjusted. All in all though, I think that Menoth is in a good place. I think Flameguard are way better than they were (and cheaper!) I think Zealots are much more reasonable than they were, Idrians I can agree fill a different roll than they did but they are far from bad, etc...
The reason we have been saying not to compare MK I and MK II is because the landscape in MK I is so different from MK II. Unit level interruption effect were removed CMD and how it relates to the game has been greatly changed, formation rules, and so on. All of these things caused a lot of things to leave many models.
What we have now though (at least what I think we have or will have when we are done) is a much cleaner game with a much more level playing field.
Sure I miss stuff, but I sure as hell dont think that we moved backwards with the whole product.
I am confidant that the more you play the more you will come to find new loves for things that are different now! :)
Oh yea, and the Machine wraith is not only inert, read it carefully again. :)
I know you have to say that you like all the new stuff...it's probably in your contract somewhere way at the bottom. But I really have trouble seeing how the Temple Flameguard are...better. They are cheaper. That much is true.
anyway, we're on my blog, so I get to respectfully disagree with you.
The Temple Flameguard are a love/hate for me.
At first, back in Prime, I hated them. They didn't hit very hard and didn't do much. I mean, I bought everything, so I got a 10 man unit of them but...blah. Power 10+2d6? Meh.
Then I realized that charging with them worked out real well. Oh and CMA attack worked out well cuz of reach. Oooh. Okay.
Then the Unit attachment came out. I LOVED them. Ranked attack! Fire! IRON ZEAL!!! The fanboy in me was very happy. I mean, even with Iron Zeal I had to watch them get auto-killed by Widowmakers, but still, they could hold the line.
In MKII, they have gained nothing but being inexpensive. Now...I put a lot of time getting them all painted up...to think that their chief benefit is...being cheap. I dunno...
Warmachine has a small problem with charge damage. Namely, anything that has an Armor within the 15-17 range dies on the charge. They simple aren't tough enough. The only hope is to avoid the charge. The moment you have Armor 20, you have a unit that might actually survive a charge. That's pretty exciting because you have board control.
Are the Temple Flameguard worthless? Certainly not. Are they better than before? Certainly not. Are they cheaper? Yep. But I for one, never asked for them to be cheaper. I always saw them as the Menoth middle ground warriors. Better than Zealots but worse than Exemplars. But costing them at the (near) bottom end, makes them on par with other cheap units.
I get that most people haven't clued in on the use of inexpensive units yet. I mean for 9 of my 50+ points, I can get 12 guys who aren't completely useless. But with the loss of something as simple as Iron Zeal (which...I dunno why it was lost in the first place) they are just a meat shield waiting to die so I can counter charge.
A problem I've been seeing with army building is salient here. When building an army, you want to maximum your potential. If you're going to take an offensive unit...you want to find a buff for that.
I really like the fluff of a game. I like that Feora is the 'leader' of the Flameguard. The Flameguard have one thing going for them: On a charge, they have an equivalent of a 15 Defense. That's great BUT, in a wargame, you try to leave nothing to chance. Kreoss, Severius and the High Reclaimer all have a way to buff that defense to the equivalent of 17! That is where the Flameguard will shine because, while they can't withstand the damage on a charge they CAN be missed.
But hopefully you see the concern. Feora isn't actually a great choice to take for Flameguard. She doesn't capitalize on their strengths. Instead she can make them hit a little harder. Sure it's a different tactic, but I would argue that most people will take Exemplars with Feora (to increase their offensive capabilities with Ignite) and Flameguard with Kreoss (to increase their defensive capabilities).
Maybe it's nothing that PP needs to be concerned with. But it's something that I noted.
Oh and I will agree and confirm: you are moving ahead. I still think a few tweaks to some of the units will do a world of good for both the game and the fans. To reiterate, I think making everything viable is a great option. Just making something cheap doesn't immediately make it stand out as viable. I think MK II is taking great strides towards that goal. I know one store that decided to stop carrying Warmachine because too many units were blah and they got stuck with a bunch of figures that nobody was buying and that the store was 'stuck with'. The store will order in what you need, but that's just not the same.
Oh and thanks for the clarification on the Machine Wraith. Le sigh. It's the same thing I ran into with Vilmon. I read it wrong and that leads to problems. Must...read....ever...word...carefully...
=D
Its not in my contract. I would be silent before I ranted about things I didnt like for sure(because that just makes sense!) but personally (its just how I am) I dont speak well of things if I dont mean it :)
For example, I still dont like deliverers, they just dont do it for me.
That out of the way, the reason flameguard are better is the new formation rules in conjunction with shield wall. With protection of Menoth (as you accurately point out) they are pretty sick for their cost any time they are not running or charging they should be in shield wall (now they can be spread out some!)
I like them a ton more because of the new formation rules so that might just be my play style as well :)
I agree about Feora and TFG as well, I like her with daughters way more. They just fit her play style for me better.
I appreciate the respectful disagreeing :) it makes for a much more productive conversation says I!
The new formation rules are much better. As are the new Shield Wall rules.
Warmachine's factions are it's strength. I guess it will always be a case of the grass is greener on the other side. I swoon at the Iron Fang Pikemen. Faster and therefore a greater charge range. Kept their mini-feat to allow them to move back into Shield wall after. Slightly greater cost.
The difference in cost is what kinda hurts my soul. Only 2 more points, eh? That's the difference between a 8 point unit (with UA) and a 10 point unit (again with UA). Umm...golly.
Just a sec...I need to bend over and catch a breath...
2 points, eh?
Anyway, again, grass is greener on the other side. Which, I realize, isn't actually an argument. Unless I'm mistake, PP wants us to judge models with a comparable point value.
It's quite a different game, isn't it.
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